Printable View
Just wondering and have a few questions...
It is pretty widely known that Ted has some of the lowest percentage payouts on the circuit at about 55%.
Given that its not about the money, what brings all of you anglers back here year after year to fish the series?
Just curious..:D
Attila
Your right !! It's not always about the money, but that does play a factor in what series I fish.. I'll I have to say is that, 1st- I have never fished a top bass event.... 2nd- I would never fish a top bass event with the knowledge of how much money Ted is putting in his pocket !! I speak for my self here , but I'm sure some will agree... I/we, spend lots of money to fish and when we win an event or at least place , it would be nice to get back a good chunk of cash !! Winning or placing in an event for 55% payback is sick !!! Thats just how I feel about it.
Hey Attila,
Great Idea!!, And while your at it, maybe you can post on the Bassmaina forum and ask their members,
Just wondering and have a few questions...
It is pretty widely known that Andy has some of the lowest boat fields on the circuit at about 55 boats for the 1 days and 20 boats for the 2 days. So given that it’s not about the money or the fields, what brings all of you anglers back here year after year to fish the series?
Then go to the CFT forum and ask their members…
Just wondering and have a few questions...
It is pretty widely known that Dan has some of the highest percentage payouts on the circuit, but can’t fill his fields. Given that it’s not about the money, what brings all of you anglers back here year after year to fish the series?
Just curious..
:D
Tell you what...why don't we make it about the money.
Top Bass has the lowest payouts based on percentages. I thought anglers fishing wanted to at least run the gammit of making their money back, but they don't seem to be doing it.
Since the majority of anglers appear to lose money in the series, and yet the numbers are still high, I'm wondering why they go back?
This isn't an argument, I just want to know. Is it because its a buddy tourny? A pal function? What?
Attila
Why do I fish topbass .First I don't have to sign up aweek in advance to fish a tourny .Ialso don't have to pay a membership fee . Ted keeps it simple. Iknow if Iever win against 100-120 boats that Iwill have accomplished something .The lakes are all within an hour of my home.These are some reasons why I fish Top bass tournys.
Attila: Just curious as to why you would like to know? And why you change the question after they clearly have been answered! However, if you really need to know soooo badly here they are; 1) cost of tournament is affordable, 2) the competition level is equal to the top of any other tournament series, 3) your statement regarding the money is simply ridiculous, because if you were to win one tournament based on a full field than you have covered your cost for the year for that series, 4) Ted is a very honourable man who genuinely cares about the anglers and what they would like to see in the future without the bulls--t. Further Ted has never told anyone not to cash a cheque and has never bounced a cheque! Can you say that about every other series? I personally want to fish where there is great anglers to compete against. I don't want to tell people I won a tournament however, there was only twenty to fifty boats. Since you've stated yourself that this is not an argument, I'm curious what series do you fish?
He doesn't
Steiner,
I haven't fished a tourny series yet because I don't know which one to get into. I'm also looking into different sponsors and trying to understand this whole business that we seem to be involved in.
That is why I'm getting information about all of them. All I'm asking is what is the draw to Teds tournaments, what in the world makes you think that I wanted to start an argument?
There are drawing points to each series and I want to hear what they are so that I can make up my own mind for next season.
Tim,
Thanks for telling me why you fish the series! Those are the kind of answers I'm looking for and I appreciate you telling them to me.
Attila
Nicely said Tim, I hate fishing in a 20-50 teams tournament and pay membership fee to fish a tournament. Topbass run a very good series and alot of good anglers fishing it.
On the Tourney Angler board theres a disscusion about % pay back that went for 6 pages. And if you follow it along you will no that Ted provides everything that the other 2 do.
Theres was a small error in the cal. Top bass has $500 big fish in every tournament so it's a little higher %.
Now the most anglers to make money are in Top Bass. Even finnishing 3rd will almost make expence. So 9 event that 27 teams plus 5th at the classic payed $4500. 8th payed $1000.
That adds another 6 or 7 teams made expences thats 34 teams that could fish free.
And Top Bass never makes a decision that doesn't look after the bottom half of the field. Taking 75 to the classic would be example, paying $1000 for 8 th at the classic.
So the guys cashing cheques don't care about % payback and the guys working there way up have lots of small accomplisments to keep them going.
Garnet
here we go again......:roll:
I have followed these discussions many times and I cannot believe how many opinions are expressed with no research into the simple facts.
We all know that Ted Wiehler is one of the Top Bass disciples, and all his thoughts are totally exceptable from his perspective. But lets really look into this with more sound data.
You say that the entry is more affordable at $175.00, with no membership. You are absolutley CORRECT. You say the fields are full, you are CORRECT (most of the time). You say you will be competing against many boats and that may justify more pride and gratification. GREAT! However the real logic is that you are competing against more teams decreasing your chances of winning LESS MONEY. That is simply ridiculous. The real problem here is that these anglers get side tracked by a low entry fee.
The total teams in 9 events in 2004 was (112,79,121,103,109,99,96,107,74) which totals 900 teams or 900 times that low entry of $175 which totals $157,500.
55% of that equals $88,625. Money left is $70,875. Now if he honours the Classic paybacks on his website which total $37,600 (what were the actual paybacks, obviously not that)
you subtract that value from $70,875 and get $33275. On yeah do not forget that you get charged to go to the Classic at $130 times 75 teams (WOW what an achievement, you represent the top 75% of the field. Just make it 100% and let everyone qualify) equals $9750. Money left over is $33,275 plus $9750 equals
$43,025. Not bad for 9 days of work. That totals $4780 per event for day of work. That is a far from honourable, that is simply an awesome business. Even if you factor the $500 big fish award per event, which totals 9 times 500 which is $4500. Minus that from $43,025 and you get $38,525. Can anyone please tell me what the big fish pay backs were to make that calculation.
$38,525 for nine days equals $4280 per event (divide that by 12 hours of work equals $356 per hour). And what expenses does he have? Please entertain me on this one.
One thing that many of you forget and this is the most important thing of all. You all support this great no bulls__t series and you get about 100 boats per event, WOW. If each team catches thier limit that is 500 fish per event, times 9 equals 4500 fish per year plus about 750 fish at the Classic. A total of 5250 fish that are caught, or at least that much if everyone catches thier limit. How many of those fish will survive in Ted's state of the art live release system. Think really hard on this guys. You said that Ted genuinely cares about the anglers and what they would like to see in the future, how about having fish in the Kawartha Lakes. Would'nt that be nice! Think before you speak and really research topics before you take a stand. Loyalty is one thing but being smoke screened is another. Look at the big picture boys you need fish to fish this sport.
Garnet you said, Ted provides everything that the other 2 do, are you OK Garnet. The CFT provincial title paid over $60,000 in cash and prizes, which is almost 70% of Top Bass' total paybacks (not including the Top Bass Classic). And that is just one event. Garnet you have some points, but you gotta research the facts.
Attila, get a spine. The intent of your original post was pretty obvious don't back out with that poor white flag surrender.
I have fished all three series and I speak based on taking the time to calculate and observe and to say what should be heard once and for all.
Its all about the money! I don't think so! Man! we all talk about winnings, payouts, and percentages! I would like to start a conversation about how much a angler loses by fishing tournaments?. Personally I fish because I enjoy the competition, and love the sport, if I was in it for the money, I would not be fishing tournaments. In my case, even if I win a tournament, I still lose anyways. You figure it out if you fish a few tournament series and have a good paying job? This site should be used as an information tool, not a battle of words. What's the fun with that? We should find new ways to draw new tournament anglers. All the bad talk, who wants to fish tournaments? We all need this sport to grow. Only by positive talk can this be acheived. Make it apealing for new angler to go on this site and become intereset to fish more tournaments. I am a new tournament angler, and its becoming boring to see posts that I really don't learn anything from. The old saying:" if you have nothing good to say don't say anything at all". Take a good look around you? Do you see alot of new faces in the tournament series? Not really! Its a shame to say but I think one of the biggest factors that will help our sport grow will be BassProShops coming into Canada. Eventhough alot of small taclke stores will be affected tremendously! But it can only help the Bass Fishing industry a whole lot! Maybe if our sport reaches the same status as the U.S.A I can quite my job! Take Care! Till next time!
Frank
But it seems that alot of guys fish this as a buddy league system if they decide on a Friday that they want to fish a tourny. In my opinion, it'd be ok to do a tourny once in a while but to fish the whole series and then have to pay for the classic, if you qualify, what is the sense in that? Defies logic to me..
Attila
Now because Top Bass look after there bottom half of the field. They are the only ones keeping new guys in the sport. There was at list 5 boats that had between 15 and 20 hp boats of which i talked one with a 20 hp Johnson on a Mirro Craft that had caught a limit on Rice and were pretty happy. My guess would be both anglers would be about 17 - 18. Bet they are back next year.
Calculating a per hour # on 9 days work. Running tournaments is 365 days a year. Just think about the people sitting last weekend eating Turkey and talking about fishing and they come up with the big ? and they just call Ted. And this happens every holiday.
The payout for the classic was exactly what was advertized.
Garnet
Bill;
Well stated!
Holy crap! Bill's gotta have balls the size of grapefruits!
Even I couldn't have pulled that one off.
Perfect execution.
I've been wonderin' for a while where da dough goes.
P.S. Take it easy on Attila, he seems like a nice guy.
Urs Duelberg
Boys,
I believe that each and every one of us have the right to say what we think.
It's also our right to fish whatever series we choose.
I think that most of us fish the Top Bass series for differant reasons.
Here are some of them:
1 low entry fee
2 The paybacks are competitive, if getting rich you should try the F.L.W. or B.A.S.S.
3 Top Bass classic pay backs were,first 12000 and 10th was just over 800.00
4 big fish can be worth over 1000.00
5 almost full fields all season
6 with Ted there are no suprises, what he promises he will provide.
7 Ted keeps it simple, tournaments are held on the same water during the weekend, cutting on travelling and pre-fish time.
8 The fact that Top Bass allows 75 teams to qualify for the classic appeals to a great number of weekend anglers.
9 no cut off periods.
10 no lengthy weight-in.
Madison, you forgot to ad the expenses like insurance,staff, hotel food fees for the parks, but then again you must belive that all of this places sponsor Ted.
Peter I think saw you last Saturday did I not?
Joe
We had a very similar post not long ago that dealt with paybacks. I also have fished all three series and this was my first year fishing Topbass. The reason, the Reelfish`n series folded and Bassmania series conflicted with the CFT`s. So Topbass filled the gap. Not long after signing up I realized what Bill has mentioned on this post (the reason for the other post). What I was hoping is that the anglers would bind together to possible change these payouts for the better of us anglers, instead we jumped on the back of each series we liked and banged heads against each other. Each series has great camaraderie great anglers, great people. The CFT crew helped me this year with trailer problems at the start of the year and boat problems at the end of the year. Bassmania I have to agree with another post Vita is one of the hardest working persons in the industry and her and Andy are great people. I got to know Ted this year and all is good.
All that being said, we come to paybacks and exposure for the anglers.
CFT-each of its different series pay back over 100% and each of its events has television exposure not to mention media exposure.
Bassmania 70% to 80% paybacks limited exposure/fields.
TopBass 55% to 70 % paybacks limited exposure/ full fields.
We as anglers put a lot into this sport both monetary and time. Some of us put a lot of time into finding sponsorship to help us with monetary commitments. For these sponsors they require both our time and exposure to media.
Looking at these three series its a no brainier to distinguish which one will help us with both. If we happen to do well in tournament we get paid for it, possible a shot at a big prize as well boat, motor and trailer (Classic). Also media attention for those sponsors.
If some of the other series organizers could do the same we all win as competitive anglers.
The better for all of us as anglers because we get what we want from all the different series. We as competitive anglers have to get together and inform the series organizers what we would like. Almost guys and girls, like our own players union.
When Ted had a meeting prior to the Rice Lake Classic and asked us what we would like to see changed no one stood up and said how about higher % paybacks and sponsorship prizes. Ted did mention that he has a hard time with obtaining sponsors. We as anglers have to work together jump on our own team and demand a great product from all three series. Banging heads is just not going to do it for us. Were going about it the wrong way.
So how about it, Higher paybacks say 100%, and more media coverage for all three series
Bruce do you want to Start the Competitive Anglers Association.
wooden shoe, wooden head, wouldn't listen.
man this is getting old . for the guys doing all the bitching about Top Bass, you don't even fish it, so no one gives a damn about your opinion. on the other hand, when guys get lipping off in here about Top Bass, it says one thing to me, Ted has had the best fields and is still topping the rest, sounds to me like Ted is making the other tournies nervous. " how does he get the fields he gets", you ask, a good businessman never tells his secrets. but year after year , he does, and his following is loyal! hmmm.
but for me personally, i will never do a Bassmania tourny again. Andy lost me 4 years ago at the Pheonix when he started swearing and cursing at us all at the docks during morning check-in. hey, i paid this guy to fish, not to listen to that crap first thing in the morning. as
for Ted, he's personable and treats every angler as an equal.
as for the payout structure, it's not hard to understand.
Ted's payouts are based on what he collects, less his expenses. oh ya, for the guys bitching, if your in business for yourself, you understand that!! EXPENSES!! fuel, insurance, rent,(did you think those municipal properties are free to use, try 500-1000 dollars a day ) staff, meals for the staff, oh ya, and that government thing called GST. so when you guys do those calculations, take that into account, i think you will find your percentages are way off base.
so lets drop this . fish whatever you want and keep the insults quiet.
Joe,
In a perfect fishing world, what you stated “It’s our right to fish whatever series we choose” would suffice. But it’s not perfect with people or should I say professional anglers like Bill and Attila, whose real goal is to convert Top Bass anglers and send them to greener pastures, like Bassmaina & CFT “fat chance”.
People like Bill Madison use their smart wit, logic and research to get their points across to us sheep that have fallen into Ted’s trap.
If you go back up a few posts you will see some of Bill’s amazing work, like Ted Wiehler is one of the Top Bass disciples, uh I think you mean Tim Wiehler there Bill.
Bill makes another observation that we are competing against more teams decreasing our chances at winning less money???? I always though the more teams entered the more money there was to be had???
The math question on Ted’s business looks pretty good; my numbers come out around $34,500. But that’s before expenses, when you take all that into consideration Ted’s profit looks more like $18,000. And that’s before the dreaded Tax man. So go right on ahead there Bill start up your own tournament series and make $356. an hour. I would love to be one of your helpers, I might get rich too.
That final bit of research done on how many fish are caught and how many will survive is interesting, so what your saying is you can put fish in your livewells for eight hours, drive around shaking but not stirring these fish is OK, but Ted putting them into four giant livewell tanks for ½ to 45 minutes before releasing them is not?????
Bill if people think there is some thing better out there they will go to it, its not like they don’t know about Bassmaina & CFT, heck most of them have fished both of these series,
Why don’t you let people go about their business and they will let you do the same.
Dear Mr.Madison
This did start out as a question and a genuine question and it was answered in it's entirety, and was happy to offer my "opinion" and facts. Now my name is not Ted Wiehler or (Ted Wieler) but Tim Wiehler. Next you have made a statement about boys getting our facts straight before offering opinions or facts, I assumed that after you went through taking the time to calculate monies received by Ted to fish his tournament that you would have been some what accurate, at assuming the cost of running a tournament series as stated by Larry and others. I too have fished all three series and have enjoyed all of my time on the water at each one of them. How ever you have to concider that not every one has the time nor the income to fish some series or more than one series. That being said we are all doing what we love to do, and that is "fish competitively", doesn't matter where you do it as long as you enjoy it. It's times like this that makes me believe that you and others all take sides or choose or are being forced to choose where your loyalty stands,(all tournament organizers are in this to make some money) when in fact if you asked every angler in every series, there would be an endless number of reasons for why they fish a series. when in fact it's a personal reason for every angler. And slamming one series over another takes us backwards not forward. If we put as much energy into helping to make any series or all series better the sky would be the limit. Instead we sit around talking politics amongst our self accomplishing nothing other then leaving a bad taste in everyones mouth. Tim.
Guys!
don't usually get involved with this but here it is.....
Is it really any of our business how much he takes or doesn't take? Does Ted or Andy or Dan know anything about our personal financial endeavours? Not likely, so what business do we have to critisize theirs. If you don't like what your seeing then leave its as simple as that. They all have every right to charge, payout , or do what ever they want as it is their business just as it is our right to participate or not to participate. If there is a problem with certain payouts then discuss this the organizer right then and there. To be bashing one series or another is just childish I personally hope that we as ADULTS that we could understand this.
BOTTOM LINE: SUPPORT WHO YOU LIKE AND DON'T BASH OTHERS FOR THEIR DECISIONS............kapische??
I definetly believe that all these subjects should be decussed and this makes some of the promoters mad. Some really mad.
In this 10 page discussion there has been some remarkable chances in opinions and others agree but never chance opinions. Thats life.
Now a promoter that didn't follow along and even get in the discussion proably would listen to 1 or 2 buddies and make some huge mistakes.
Always Thinking
Garnet
Dudes,
These posts make my head spin....:( They sound the same as this time last year and ..........
I have nothing to add.............for once!
Can't wait until tomorrow! Smallie heaven
Dan:P
Do people cry this much about the Toronto Sun Salmon Hunt?
The whole "Hollier than thou" additude is slowly making me sick. Or how about the "for the better of the sport" bulls..t everyone throws into almost every topic......please.
The sad non sugar coated truth is there is no money it!
Your best payout is the salmon hunt. At about $35 per ticket and a boat handed out every week you can't beat it.
Urs Duelberg
Best answers when you have nothing worth saying. Thanks Urs.