Rule Change for Big Water Tournaments

I would love to see our Pro/Ams get even more support next season. I looked over the numbers of many of the past big water tournaments (Lake Ontario, Simcoe, St. Lawrence) and I think my idea is going to stir up some interest. Don't get me wrong, the current big water tournaments are great, love them but we can make them even better.

For big water tournaments, there would be a lot more interest if the largemouth were more of a factor. Right now if you fish for largies at the Kingston Open for example, you are fishing for 20th place.

What if the rules changed to 6 largemouth or 5 smallmouth. Mixed bags would be 5 fish only. Guys targeting largemouth would still be at a disadvantage, but much less so especially in multi-day events. Boaters would certainly increase and so to would non-boaters. In talking to my non-boaters from the Kingston Open the last three years, they really get a pounding on the water and only the hard core make it back the following year.

I am not suggesting this rule change for inland lakes like Rice or Tri-lakes just big waters.

What do you guys think? Yeah or nay?

Nay... Interesting concept though.

I actually like this idea. It may attract more boaters and non-boaters. But I have little knowledge of the water so Im just an outsider looking in. That being said if that was an idea turned real I'd be interested. So it may not be a doable thing but you have a great idea and I think your on to something. IMHO.

I don't see how you could separate species because often there is a mixed bag. There is a lot of very large green ones in the area but very few want to fish for them. There has been several bags of largemouth over the last 4 years that were in the top 5 of the day.

The reason many of the AM's only come once is because for many it is a trip of a lifetime. It is expensive if you don't live in the area. Next years two locations and reduced cost should make a big difference.

This years event was the best yet after some fine tuning from previous years so you have to be careful about what you change. The organizers including Shimano and the CSFL do seem to have a very good grasp of what is working and what isn't.

What's working and what isn't......
Berkley B1 Event at 155+ boats.....Canadian Open 56 boats
Pro Ams have just never been the deal here, but some still insist on putting that round peg in the square hole.

I think new formats keep things interesting... Good to hear some new ideas, but ultimatley I believe anglers have grown to expect certain criteria for fishing these events as is. If the tournament doesnt fit in an anglers wheelhouse, then we all seem to find one that best suits our competitive wants. So damned expensive in the last few years though for travel costs.

I don't know if I like the idea of adding 1 fish for greenbacks, everyone has the opportunity to fish for one or the other and you and you alone should have to bear the responsibility of catching your best 5 if you choose to fish for the species that is known to have less #'s of big ones. There shouldn't be special treatment just because your species isn't known to grow as large as the other on the body of water you're fishing.

That being said, what about mandatory mixeed bags? 2 of each and your 3rd is a wildcard?

As for format of events, I think that Team Tourneys seem to be the way to go because there is just so much choice right now. But I think there is a nieche for all formats.

Team Events - Localized / Regional Qualifiers and 1 off annual events (IE BPS Open & B1 etc). Both draw good numbers depending on the organizing body and are well received by the majority of anglers as the bread and butter events they typically fish.

Pro-Am’s - Good stage to showcase top level anglers while giving newbys the opportunity to learn and get their feet wet into tournaments.

Angler / Co-Angler - CBAF & OBF Qualifiers from what I’ve heard are both very well run and highly participated. But yet I keep getting told that this format won’t fly in Ontario? Unless I am mistaken I don’t think that anyone outside of these grassroots Federations has attempted it so there is really is very little backing to say that it won’t work.

Lots of room to play around with these events also, you can make it a top level prestigious event like the Kingston Open, or you can make them inexpensive localized Divisional Qualifiers towards a Regional or National Championship similar to the BFL - Regional - All American - FLW CUP hierarchy.

Like I said I think there’s room for all 3 format’s, it’s just a matter of to what end or extent? That’s up to the organizers though. We can suggest, but they are the ones who have to make the decisions on this, a task that I don’t at all envy!

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Originally Posted by Peter Bartonek

What's working and what isn't......
Berkley B1 Event at 155+ boats.....Canadian Open 56 boats
Pro Ams have just never been the deal here, but some still insist on putting that round peg in the square hole.

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There is a huge difference in cost between the B1 and the Canadian Open. The entry cost per boat for the B1 is $600.00 but the entry for the Canadian Open is $1750.00 (pro$1000.00 am $750.00). The Canadian Open has twice the payout per person at 100 boats. I believe now that the event is going to be two days and the entry cost is lower you will find it will sell out very quick. If I had my choice I would just fish pro-ams.

As an AM that has fished the Open for the past 4 years and fished with some amazing people, I have had the opportunity to fish large mouth only days with my Pros and thoroughly enjoyed it. Honestly, they've said to me "we won't get the weight that the smallies may produce but have a chance if they shut down!" which is very true being that there are some unbelievable lm spots around Kingston and smallies are finicky.

I do think maybe looking at segregating the 2 types maybe of interest to some and beneficial as it may draw in those that know the river and large mouth fishing more that small mouth.

I know a lot of people that fish largies only and if it were changed, would be more interested in entering the Open.

Cheers

Just wondering about the 2 day event at split locations next year and reduced costs. John can you provide a little more info on Where and How much if you know of these details? 1st I have heard of the change points for next season.
Thanks in advance.
JK

I disagree with the idea. Kingston open is stiveing to be the top level professional tourny in ontario/canada and with that said is most likley hoping to draw the best of the best anglers to show case their events and fisheries. To be the best you must beat the best and if that means going out of your confort zone well that just part of the game at the top level. We never hear KVD complian that he has to go to florida and flipp for largies and ya never hear Denny Brauer complain when he has to go smallie fishin on St.clair.

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Originally Posted by Aaron-Hathaway

I disagree with the idea. Kingston open is stiveing to be the top level professional tourny in ontario/canada and with that said is most likley hoping to draw the best of the best anglers to show case their events and fisheries. To be the best you must beat the best and if that means going out of your confort zone well that just part of the game at the top level. We never hear KVD complian that he has to go to florida and flipp for largies and ya never hear Denny Brauer complain when he has to go smallie fishin on St.clair.

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Thats because Denny is retired..LMAO --just teasing but I hear ya !

I fished the Kingston open as an AM its first two years, (2010 and 2011) and I was very fortunate to draw some incredible anglers, John Whyte and Andrew Shufelt being a couple of them. Actually the day I was supposed to fish with Andrew, high winds and rough waters kicked in and the day was actually cancelled prior to launching. Andrew still wanting to fish, planned to head to another inland lake for the day, and invited me along. Something he didn't have to do...and something I was grateful for.
I truly enjoyed fishing the event both years and was fortunate enough to place high in the AM standings, and both years i walked away with some great prizes.
Unfortunately, while I would have loved to fish it again, ( every year), it is an expensive week when you add it all up. It also requires time away from work, and time away from the family.
Personally, if it were an event that happened every second or third year, I'd probably be in every time. But its tough to commit to it every year for the reasons mentioned above.
I most certainly plan on fishing it again at some point as I think its a fantastic event. I've learned more in those 6 days of fishing then I would have fishing an entire season on my own.

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Originally Posted by Aaron-Hathaway

I disagree with the idea. Kingston open is stiveing to be the top level professional tourny in ontario/canada and with that said is most likley hoping to draw the best of the best anglers to show case their events and fisheries. To be the best you must beat the best and if that means going out of your confort zone well that just part of the game at the top level. We never hear KVD complian that he has to go to florida and flipp for largies and ya never hear Denny Brauer complain when he has to go smallie fishin on St.clair.

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Alltough Denny did complain when JVD flipped for his Largies!... :o lol

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Originally Posted by jamiekennedy

Just wondering about the 2 day event at split locations next year and reduced costs. John can you provide a little more info on Where and How much if you know of these details? 1st I have heard of the change points for next season.
Thanks in advance.
JK

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I'm not sure if it's carved in stone yet but the second tournament will be mid Aug. on Simcoe out of Barrie. I believe the Kingston Canadian Open will be the same dates but reduced to two days. I also believe the pro entry will be $750 or $800 and the AM side will be $600.00. I could certainly be corrected but these are the numbers I'm seeing.

If you want to fish the Simcoe Canadian Open the first spots will be reserved for those that fished the Kingston Open. There actually was a press release about this so I'll try and find it for more details if there is anyone.

Thanks for the reminder to get my cheque in now and reserve my position

All valid points. The whole idea of this rule change is to get more boaters and nons out and get closer to a 100 boat field. No one is complaining, just trying to suggest ways to improve. More participation equals higher prize pools which draws more anglers and it snowballs. I honestly believe a 5-fish limit of smallies at Kingston over two days would still win over 6-fish largie limit, the only difference is the winner may be going home with $50,000 instead of $20,000.

I wonder if a separate prize for an all largemouth bag would suffice?

I think it’s a great idea (6 LM/mixed), and very much narrows the current gap and potentially bring in more people on the pro side – myself included.

In around about way, that's what I was trying to suggest as well, John. :)

I feel like this thread is turning into that same conversation we BFB’ers have every year about format and changes and why we don’t have full fields etc…

If you ask me I don’t think that a less than full field is due to the fact the “Largemouth Only” guys feel they can’t compete there so they simply don’t enter. If that’s honestly the case then why go to Simcoe (silly question I know lol)? Why not a fishery with more of an equal opportunity for both species like Rice or the Ottawa River? I think there’s more to it than available species.

I could be wrong about this but wasn’t there a waiting list on the Pro side which in theory may have made a full field if the Amateur sign up was equal to or greater? I’m only going by what I’ve heard not what I know to be fact so please correct me if I am wrong.

But if that is true it does beg the question, why are there not enough Am’s entering? Every other draw tournament (series) I’ve ever heard about always has an Am / Non Boater waiting list.

I am not even going to be begin to state my opinion on this simply because I have never fished it so I would have no basis for one to begin with. However there are others out there with opinions who have entered who decided not to come back for whatever reason.

Whatever the case I am sure they are listening well and working hard to come up with a winning formula for events to come. Hopefully whatever stifled participation was a short lived occurrence and future events will fill and be taken to the next level!

We may have distorted the thread a little. Personally I could not be happier with the way it is but any good idea is worth consideration. I have been corrected about the 2 day change for Kingston, it is back to 3.

Wow...back to 3? Seemed a for sure thing and I'm sure a difficult decision to have made.

Gotta say I'm happy with that but I'm local so don't have the extra costs others do.

If there going to have 2 next year,why not have a 3rd and throw in a classic.

If all goes well, I'm sure a 3rd and 4th will come.

I think if it's more affordable the guys sitting on the fence may fish.
Then I could donate to the Johnson's also,lol.

How are NB's paired with boaters over the 3 days. I've noticed that the same NB's seem to always get paired with a top boater. It would be hard to commit money to an event if you never have a chance at being paired with a top boater. It would be hard to believe that the same NB would be able to draw a top boater 3 years in a row if it came down to luck of the draw. Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by kendoner

How are NB's paired with boaters over the 3 days. I've noticed that the same NB's seem to always get paired with a top boater. It would be hard to commit money to an event if you never have a chance at being paired with a top boater. It would be hard to believe that the same NB would be able to draw a top boater 3 years in a row if it came down to luck of the draw. Am I missing something?

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That's what it was, luck of the draw.

Personally I'd love to see an event like the open or b1 on a lake that you can compete without a 21 ft boat. Seems to me like any tourney worth a good amount of money is a " Great Lakes" event Dictated by smallmouth. there is another open scheduled for next year on simcoe.. Same guys will fish it.. Same interest around it. not saying it doesn't take alot of skill to catch brown fish it does, it would just be nice to see the Largie guys play too. There are a ton of lakes in Ontario.. I don't believe you have to pick the biggest lakes for the biggest tourneys..

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Originally Posted by JohnWhyte

That's what it was, luck of the draw.

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Last year we NB's picked a random envelope for each day and within, was our boater.

Very well done and fair in my opinion and I know myself as usual, had great pro's to fish with. Hell, they're all amazing and have yet to have a bad pairing.

Getting more pro's isn't the issue. If the open can not draw more non boaters simcoe will be a flop as well. Personally I feel the Canadian open should be run as a team event like B1 and BPS. Non boaters paying 200 less then the pro and fishing for donated prizes just isn't cutting it every year its the same story.. 10-20 pros wanting to fish and no non boaters. Sarnia was a perfect example as well. I don't think adding green fish to the mix is the answer but maybe changing the format is. just my 2 cents

Agreed, format is probably the issue. No matter what body of water you're on, there is only so many times that many Non's (not all) are going to drop that kind of cash to learn and win prizes before the novelty wears off.

If it’s more affordable or the % payback was increased to equal what the Pro division gets I think you would see more Non Boater participation. Maybe incorporate a cash in conjunction with prize pay structure. And if the sponsorship just isn’t there to make it happen, then maybe we as a Tournament Angling community need to come to the realization that we’re just not at that level yet to operate these types of events.

Alternatively is it a question of a sign of the times, or the format that’s keeping more potential sponsors / companies from getting on board? I really am not qualified or well versed to answer that question, but I know I am not the only one asking it.

Must be October again because I am getting deja-vu, popcorn anyone lol...

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Originally Posted by chad_wentzell

Getting more pro's isn't the issue. If the open can not draw more non boaters simcoe will be a flop as well. Personally I feel the Canadian open should be run as a team event like B1 and BPS. Non boaters paying 200 less then the pro and fishing for donated prizes just isn't cutting it every year its the same story.. 10-20 pros wanting to fish and no non boaters. Sarnia was a perfect example as well. I don't think adding green fish to the mix is the answer but maybe changing the format is. just my 2 cents

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Chad
Last year there were too many AM's by tournament time. I hope we are not going to have the same problem next year in Kingston. As for Simcoe I believe finding 80 or 100 amateurs will be no problem. It is a two day event, the cost is lower and it is much closer to a larger population. As I understand these events are building towards a series with a new one added in 2015.

As for changing the format, I can't think of a single thing that could make these tournaments better after last year. The pro and am are a team so there is no competing against the guy in the front or back of the boat. It adds a level of excitement and in my experience most of the NB's add a level of skill. Three of my "team partners" turned me into a net man and I was happy for it. Most of them have become good friends.

The venue for this type of tournament has to have all of the facilities and water that can't be pressured and preferably no cottagers association to deal with. The Great Lakes smallmouth population is booming and smallmouth growth rates are such that a lot of teams can produce big weights and it won't harm the fishery. There are very few teams that didn't catch a lot of fish in Kingston and that makes for a much better day on the water. The community has to be able to add to the prize table and be large enough to benefit from the exposure.

I agree it would be great to have a venue where more could participate. The B.A.S.S. and FLW tournaments held out of Clayton were both won in the river where the size of boat is less relevant. There are some huge largemouth in the St. Lawrance and a combination bag could easily win. So as deep water centric as it may seem there is something for everyone.

Considering the above criteria, where would be the perfect venue for everyone that wanted to fish one event of the series?

I was not criticizing the kingston open as i have fished it both on the pro and am side. Very well run but the numbers speak for them selves.2 years ago there was not enough non boaters and a lot of anglers were donating spots to solder on. I had no interest in coming as a non boater but that was my only option as there was a list of boaters waiting to get in.Everyone is entitled to there own opinion and as fun as pro ams are i would rather see bigger team events. Its a Northern thing right now , look at the bfl and everstarts the numbers are way down in the north. The everstarts did not even a run a tournament on any of the great lakes last year.

I am seeing a few large mouth only tourneys being posted ,,,,, if you wanna win with large mouth maybe more largemouth only tourneys ,,,,,,,,6 buckets to 5 smallies what if a guy has 2 smallies in his bag can he bring in 3 and a half buckets .........please don't segregate our bass ,,,,, a bass is a bass bucket or smallie ,,,,all bass created EQUAL,,,,I have a dream that one day all bass will be fished and treated equal......please !!!!!! maybe a series that puts you on lakes that have better buckets and lakes that have better smallies that way all anglers will have to be deverse and learn to fish for all species of bass

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Originally Posted by chad_wentzell

I was not criticizing the kingston open as i have fished it both on the pro and am side. Very well run but the numbers speak for them selves.2 years ago there was not enough non boaters and a lot of anglers were donating spots to solder on. I had no interest in coming as a non boater but that was my only option as there was a list of boaters waiting to get in.Everyone is entitled to there own opinion and as fun as pro ams are i would rather see bigger team events. Its a Northern thing right now , look at the bfl and everstarts the numbers are way down in the north. The everstarts did not even a run a tournament on any of the great lakes last year.

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True enough Chad pro am numbers are way down but it could be a sign of the times. There does seem to be an economic barrier for many these days but that is true for team events as well. It could be just a matter of saturation. So many tournaments and not enough time or cash. The tournaments that are doing well are lower entry fee events on smaller lakes where gas and other expenses don't get out of hand. But it would be a shame to loose all of our premier events because we don't support them and everyone's opinion will show in the number of entries. It is certainly an industry in transition.